Are you utilizing case studies in your business?
In this episode of Art of Online Business, I sat down with Brittany Herzberg who specializes in writing case studies that are rooted in SEO. Brittany is here to share why she believes testimonials are so last year and we should be focusing on case studies instead.
Brittany shares how to create case studies using her PET framework and where we should be using them to maximize our sales and connection.
Brittany Herzberg is the copywriter service providers call when they want to show up as the answer to a Googled question. After test-driving her skills with a variety of projects, it dawned on her—her superpower lies in social proof. That combined with her 15+ years in the healthcare field, has shown her that clients search for—and book with—people they connect with & trust.
She believes your #1 business-building task should be to create a powerful human connection with strangers—using SEO & story. As an SEO + Case Study Copywriter, she knows how important it is to craft messaging with intention, highlight the client experience, and strategically use your clients’ words.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why testimonials are so last year
- What the PET framework is and how it works
- Why storytelling is an important aspect of your case studies
- How case studies speed up the know, like, and trust factor
- Where to leverage case studies for your business
- How to interview the people you’re writing your case studies on
- Where to use case studies during your launch
- How SEO fits into your case studies
- Tips for doing keyword research for your case studies
Links & Resources:
- The Art of Online Business website
- DM me on Instagram
- Visit my YouTube channel
- The Art of Online Business clips on YouTube
- Full episodes of The Art of Online Business Podcast on YouTube
- The Art of Online Business Podcast website
- Check out my Accelerator coaching program
*Disclosure: I only recommend products I use and love and all opinions expressed here are my own. This post may contain affiliate links that at no additional cost to you, I may earn a small commission.
Brittany Herzberg’s Links:
- Check out Brittany’s website
- Tune in to The Simple and Smart SEO Show
- Follow Brittany on Instagram
- Connect with Brittany on LinkedIn
- Follow Brittany on Facebook
- Follow Brittany on Pinterest
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Testimonials are the movie trailer. Case studies are the full movie, so case studies allow you to get the context to see what the whole journey was. And I’m sure we’re going to go into the framework in a little bit, but like you get the big picture, so it’s not the testimonials. You shouldn’t use them. It’s just like they can’t be the only thing that you rely on anymore. And even in just this last December, I launched a case study training for solopreneurs. And one thing I kept hearing from these people that I was talking to as I was launching was they were saying like, I see these testimonials. I get it like they’re dumped on these pages. I look at them. I don’t know if I can trust them. So if you have an entire story, a case study that gives you the space to be like, Look, this is real, and here’s the context to the story and here’s what was going on.
All right. Welcome to today’s episode of The Art of Online Business podcast. My friends Rick Mulready here and really excited about today’s episode. I learned a ton from this interview that I’m about to share with you with my guest, Brittany Herzberg. Brittany is a copywriter and she specializes in case studies and not just any case study, a case study that’s rooted in SEO, and this is something I’d never heard before in nine years of my online business. Like how do we maximize SEO from great case studies? So many of us use testimonials in our business, myself included. But Brittany is going to talk about why she feels like testimonials are so last year. And you know, case studies are what we really need to be using on a whole different level. We often think of case studies being used in like our emails and, you know, maybe on social media or what have you, and maybe on our sales page. But Brittany’s going to share a whole bunch of examples on where we should be using case studies to maximize our sales and connection. She talks about, you know, building that connection with potential customers through case studies and not just any case studies like through storytelling. In our case studies, she shares her PET framework. Pete which is how she recommends doing a case study and walks us through the entire process. Not only that, but also again, how to incorporate SEO so that it has long term benefits for us. When people are searching for a specific thing, you have the opportunity for your case study or your case studies to come up as a search result on Google. So without further ado, let’s go hang out with Brittany Herzberg. Brittany, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Hello.
I’m doing great. How are you doing great.
You’ve been traveling around New England? Yeah. Where are you from originally? I don’t think I asked you that.
It’s a wonderful question to ask me and I never know how to answer it because I’ve moved around a ton as a kid. Shockingly grew up for the most part in North Carolina.
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And you’ve been checking out the different states in New England. My old stomping grounds. Yeah. And yeah, we’ve been all around.
You’re in Connecticut now?
Yes. Yeah, That’s where we want to settle in Connecticut.
I’m really excited about our conversation here today because we were just chatting before we hit record here. And this is something that I mean, I’ve mentioned here in the podcast and you know, listeners of the show here understand the importance of case studies and and so forth. But we don’t really you know, there’s a question out there that for me, it’s kind of like we’ll just ask and you’ll get a case study. Like I honestly look at it like as simple as that. But there’s more to it than that. And especially like how to get a good case study, you know, what is there a repeatable system that you can put in place to to ensure that you’re getting case studies and and so forth. And I’m really excited to dive into this. You said you have a line here I’m looking at testimonials are so last year so so glad you like that. But yeah because I’m looking at like my, you know, page for accelerator for example. And there’s a lot of testimonials on there and I sort of look at them as. Many case studies, but I could be looking at them completely wrong. So I’m excited to dive into this conversation here today. So what is your what’s your background?
I became a copywriter by way of massage therapy and COVID.
Okay. That’s pretty much the. Tell us more about that. What does that mean?
Yeah, let me explain. So this is, you know, part of why it’s great to get the full story is like, what’s the context of all of that? So 2020, I’ll try to make this succinct. I was at home like everyone else. I wasn’t able to massage. My clients needed to update my website, which has had like four lives at this point. And I was like, I really hope my clients are missing me. You know what? I need some testimonials. Let me just ask them what they’re missing about working with me. So I did that, got tons and tons of responses, rewrote my website, added the testimonials. Just before I was set to go back to work. I ended up watching Marisa Corcoran’s the copy chat that she does usually once a year in the summer and discovered that I was a copywriter and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is why I like writing the way that I like writing. And this is why my clients like going to my website seeing that, you know, what they’re seeing on there. The words sound like me. So, you know, dove into the whole world of copywriting. Eventually launched myself as a copywriter officially in 2021, moved around, opened and closed massage practices. But I just fell in love with copywriting. And I initially started helping health care providers. And now I’ve opened it up where I help service providers via SEO and case study copywriting.
Okay. I want to learn because we talked about that beforehand, like SEO and copyright and case study copywriting. Like I want to know what the the correlation is. I’m also curious. You said I became a copywriter. Like, how did you get started?
I had been part of my realization by watching the copy chat was, Oh my gosh, I’ve been writing my own copy for over six years. And then it was, Oh wait, I can do this for other people and they’ll pay me. So my friend actually, Jasmine, my friend, she’s a pediatric dentist and now she’s an airway specialist, was my very first client. She was like, I need some help. I need to get blah, blah, blah written. Can you help me? Like you always understand exactly what I’m saying. And I was like, Let’s give it a try. So I wrote some stuff for I think it was like three different deliverables, you know, emails, some fliers, a few other things. And immediately she was like, Oh my gosh, you took the words that were in my head and you put it on paper. This is amazing. Like, how did you do it? I’m like, I don’t know. Can I do it again? So really, my first clients were just word of mouth referrals. And that’s still that’s always been the case with my massage practice. And then that is still a big deal for me. Just referrals, actually. I had a person ask me that this morning, like, do you get any traction from Instagram with your question? Like, where do you get your clients from? And I’m like, Honestly, all over. But referrals are the big one.
So how did you go about making the connections in order to make the because you know, a lot of like, we know similar people in the copy space and like how did you begin to make those connections with other copywriters?
That’s a really good question. So maybe what goes into it the most is my personality. I, I just love meeting people. I love hearing their stories, which is part of why, you know, the deliverables I have are so great for me. And I’m also not so shy or not so starstruck that I’m not going to say hi to someone and just see if there’s a connection there. A lot of people, and I’m noticing a lot of my friends are like, Oh my gosh, they’re too big. I can’t. Like, that’s a huge name. I can’t talk to them. And I’m like, They’re a person. Just like, go talk to them. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of it was that. And then honestly, you know, our mutual friends have introduced me to several other people, so it’s just putting yourself out there, making those connections, talking to people, being open, and the rest kind of just falls into place.
I’m so glad you bring that up because are so glad you put it that way because and we mentioned this before we hit record, too, it’s like there’s no everyone in the online space who people think like, Oh, they’re a big name. They’re just a person. Just person. They’re just a person, you know, they do normal stuff. And I guarantee you I know this for a fact that there’s a whole lot going on behind the scenes that you don’t get to see that if you heard those things, you’d be like, Oh, that person is just is like just another person. Yeah.
So and I think me being a massage therapist, I worked on some people who were, you know, well known in my area. You get to meet them as people. You get to hear what’s going on. And there’s actually I wasn’t going to bring this up, but I just got like a picture of it in my head. I had this little pillow when I was a kid and it was like a wind up noise box thing. And it said, If you see someone without a smile, give them one of yours. And it just always reminded me like, people are people. You never know what they’re what they’re meeting you with. You never know what they’re driving past you in another car with like you just don’t know. They’re just a person and they’ve got their own stuff going on.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you what is testimonials are so last year talk about talk about that because we always hear that we need testimonials from our clients And you just mentioned like I went I sought testimonials from my massage clients for my website. Now, granted, that was a while ago, but what do you mean by that?
And it’s not that testimonials are pointless. One thing I really love saying is that testimonials are the movie trailer. Case studies are the full movie, so case studies allow you to get the context to see what the whole journey was. And I’m sure we’re going to go into the framework in a little bit, but like you get the big picture, so it’s not the testimonials. You shouldn’t use them. It’s just like they can’t be the only thing that you rely on anymore. And even in just this last December, I launched a case study training for solopreneurs. And one thing I kept hearing from these people that I was talking to as I was launching was they were saying like, I see these testimonials. I get it. Like there’s they’re dumped on these pages. I look at them. I don’t know if I can trust them. So if you have an entire story, a case study that gives you the space to be like, Look, this is real, and here’s the context to the story and here’s what was going on.
Why don’t people trust him?
What I have noticed is that sometimes we focus on the external results. We notice on the we focus on the numbers. We focus on like the number of students, the income that was made. I had a, you know, six figure launch, whatever it is, and we forget those internal wins. So we focus on the external wins and we don’t remember the internal wins. Someone feeling more confident, someone feeling more empowered, someone feeling clear on something that’s huge. That’s the stuff that’s keeping them up at night. So if we can really call attention to that. The other thing it really lets someone do is if a reader, if a potential client, potential student is going to the web page, they’re going to the sales page they’re looking through. Or wherever they’re going. If you can focus on those internal wins, they’re able to picture themselves in those seats a little bit easier. It might be a big jump to a reader who just made a $2,000 launch to read about someone having a six figure launch. That’s a big jump and not everybody can can get there.
So it’s almost like a little bit I don’t know. What’s coming to my mind is a little bit of like the softer results, if you will, that that frankly and I think this is what you’re saying, is that most testimonials don’t cover. Yeah, most of them like are numbers numbers based. Yeah, I know that when when I get testimonials and from maybe some of our accelerator members and a couple of them are talking about those I feel more confident about or this I almost I almost like my immediate thought about them, just to be honest, is like, oh, that’s maybe not as strong a one as, you know, whatever this other one with numbers in it. But what I’m hearing is what you’ve seen is that sometimes those are some of the stronger ones actually, because they are oftentimes easier for people to see themselves in.
Yeah. And you said stronger. The thing I was thinking of was valuable to us as business owners. We might not see them as super valuable or we might not think that someone would see that as valuable. But the reader, that’s, that’s huge. That’s everything to them. And actually this I just got to put this into action with one of my mentors just about a week and a half ago. She’s launching something and I was like, we were talking about the testimonials that she had in an email sequence, and I was like, I’ve been through your program. I know social proof. Can I take a stab at this for you? And she was like, Sure. She actually let me like collaborate with her on this. And as we were going through, it was cool to kind of see like the light bulbs start clicking. And it’s it kind of is unfortunate because as we have this success, we kind of get a little bit removed from where we first started out from where a lot of our people might be. So to have someone else be able to come in and just be like, Nope, this is kind of where they’re at. Like, this is really good for them. This means a lot like it’s cool, right? It gives you it kind of gives you that tether back down to where you were at some point and where your people still are.
So what types of changes did you make?
A lot of it was just like highlighting things. And one thing she did was she put some testimonials in a different color font color, okay? And I was like, Oh, this is great. Your eye goes immediately there. Something she already really does a great job of is taking a screenshot and underlining and she has a certain color that she uses. I don’t want to rat it out just in case anyone’s paying attention. But yeah, she goes in, she underlines things and then we just worked in more of the internal results, more of those internal wins.
So when I think case study and I don’t you have, you have something called a PET framework. Sure do which you you said that you are you don’t love the cliche of being a dog mom, but you will use it. And I notice here that you have pet that’s the name of your framework pet. Yep. So what is the pet framework when it comes to case studies?
So the PET framework exists because. Brendan McGowan I’m always running things by her and she was like, We just had a conversation in Voxer one day and she’s like, That’s your framework? And I was like, Bless you because I always wanted something that was just like fun. Yeah. And this is so me and I have a dog named Jack, and I was like, This is perfect. So the PET framework is the storyline that all of my case studies are based on. So it’s p was the problem that someone was having, what’s their experience and then T what was their transformation? And again, the internal and the external transformation. So really you’re just trying to get a sense of what was the before, during and the after. And if you can get that out, you have a really clear storyline for someone to be able to follow as they’re reading, as they’re reading through. And frankly, this came out of me feeling like it was a giant, weak spot of mine as a copywriter to have a seamless through line in my stories that I was writing. So I was like, I need something to help me focus because I do have a tendency to like ping pong. And this has been instrumental for me being able to get some really awesome, awesome case studies out into the world.
So problem experience, transformation, both internal and external. Yes. So when you say like get some awesome case studies out into the world, tell us more. Like what does that look like with this framework here?
It looks like the story is that I’ll say it this way I wrote one for someone who has since become a friend and I still remember her. I still get chills thinking about it. I sent her the link or she was given the link maybe by my client and she’s like, I’m bawling. I just read what you wrote about me and I’m bawling. So she, you know, the person that we’re highlighting in this story felt, seen, felt celebrated. And I don’t know that we do that enough period for ourselves. So that was huge. That was really big. But I also remember one of the very first ones I wrote I. You know, you have all these things bouncing around in your head and you want to bring the story to life. And I remember clear as day got this headline in my in my brain. It just like woke up with it. And I was like, this is great. And I immediately, like, ran over and wrote it down. So I just really love being able to bring attention to people, bring awareness to them, celebrate them, make them feel good, but also make the readers feel like they can relate and like they connect to both. Ideally, you want to connect them with the business owner and you want them to connect with the person who’s the client in the story. So and I say story because that’s how I think of it, is just like you’re bringing the story to life. You’re you’re sharing this person’s story.
Yeah, We’re just going to ask you, like, what? What do you mean by are you telling us specific So the problem are you presenting it in like story format? I would imagine that like story is like the hero and the journey and all that stuff, right? Are we talking about the same thing here?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you’re you’re following the person. And actually, we were talking about this before also before we hit record, my boyfriend, some of what he does is editing. So he’s like my in-house copy editor and I’ll get my case study done and then I’ll send it to him. And I’m like, okay, you know, copy. Edit this for me. And something I also hear him talk about with his own clients is like following the character. Following the main character. Yeah. So like, let’s say I’m writing about Rick. It’s like, all right, did I lose track of Rick? I got to find Rick again. Like, where is he? So but yes, there is like the hero, the client and the business owner. So there’s kind of like a two part, two part, although as I’m saying that it’s kind of like your client needs to be the hero in the business owner is the guide. So whatever they’re teaching or sharing would be more of like that guide aspect. If you follow Donald Miller with his, what is it story, brand story, brand framework. Yeah. So it’s it’s allows you if you have this more of like a story it allows you to follow the journey and then you’re hooked. And of course with copywriting, it’s like you want them to read the line and then read the next line and then read the next line and then eventually take some kind of action. So that was how I yeah, that was how I was able to put it in more of like a story format, build those connections, give that seamless flow through it.
So if I’m a course creator. How can we. Can we go through, like, a hypothetical? Yeah. Put you on the spot. How could I do? Yeah.
So let’s. So if I’m a course creator and I want to include a case study and and I do want to talk about like where, you know, what are the quote unquote best places to be leveraging case studies because whether it’s, you know, if we’re doing a live promo or evergreen or what have you, or emails, just like, you know, regular emails that we’re writing, what are the like, how can we go about. Doing this. So I’m a course creator. Yeah. So I’m going to I’m a course creator and I want to include it in my evergreen funnel. I want to include to include a great case study. Go. No pressure.
Step one, write it. Well, step one is actually identifying who it is that you want to highlight. And again, this is something that I start with my clients with Who do you want to feature and why? What is it that you really want to highlight? Once we figure that out, part of my process is that I watch an interview or I listen to an audio interview, I make notes, I pull out quotes, and then I come up with a story arc, which was what we just talked about, the framework. So I fill that out. And then as SEO is in everything that I do, so I come up with the SEO research, come up with the strategy for that page, so that it gets found so that when someone does some kind of search on Google, it gets found. Then I write the first draft and then send it to my client, make it all pretty, send it off to a web designer. Ta da! It’s all done. It’s on the web. And with that, you could either create a case study blog, or you could create a case study web page. Kind of just whatever your preference is, you could do either one. I’ve done both. I don’t really know. I don’t have a good answer for that. It’s just kind of personal preference. I’ve had clients ask me that and I’m like, Whatever you want to do, if you want to have a blog, if you want to have just a web page, one of them’s going to have slash blog and then the URL.
Okay, okay, I got you.
But I haven’t found an SEO performance difference there.
Would you include that on a sales page?
Yes. So? Well, you could. Okay. I have a client that’s actually testing this out right now, and I want to see how it plays out. And it wasn’t even something that I thought of because I do write sales pages as well. And as you know, the goal of a sales page, get someone to the sales page, you take the header off, you take the footer off, you want them to make one of two choices. They’re in there buying or they don’t like it, they’re out. Right. So ideally you wouldn’t or in theory you wouldn’t, but that’s currently being tested out. So I kind of think of case study pages similar to sales pages, except flipped on its head so that the sales page, you want them to make one of two choices they’re in or they’re out with a case study. I want them to feel like they’re on a diving board and they get to take a jump into everywhere that you are online. It speeds up the know like trust factor. So for a slower buyer, slower decision maker, they get all of these touchpoints and most likely they’re going to go check out at least a few of them. They’re going to go check you out on Instagram, listen to your podcast, see what it was that you helped your client with. And in theory, they will like you and want to work with you. So that’s my thought of like how a case study works in that capacity.
Where would the case study live in that in that instance?
So if they are actively launching something or even if they have an evergreen funnel and they have a sales page up, what I like to do is make the call to action. One of the calls to action from the sales page or from the case study to go to the sales page. So before that we have common places that I like to use case studies. You can turn it into a social post and then leave the link in your bio. You can talk about it frequently early on. Let’s say Instagram stories. I love Instagram, so I hang out there all the time. You could have it as part of even like a Facebook Live or something like that. You could talk about it and then link to it. A lot of my clients use them in their emails, in their launch sequences. You could have it in your welcome sequence, you could have it in a regular monthly, you know, just a normal email where you talk about it and point people in that direction. So those are some of the common places where they where they hang out. Also, you can link to it from different pages on your website and it doesn’t matter if it’s a blog, it doesn’t matter if it’s its own web page. So you could have it, let’s say, on your services page where you’re like, Here’s the thing I offer if you want to check it out in action, read so-and-so’s case study and then click out and they can go and read about it over there. So those are some of the common ones that I.
Oh, I got you. Okay. So that’s where, like, the extra blog page would come in where you just like this page is just about this one case study here.
And you could like I was saying, you could do that with. So, you know, if you’re picturing an about page, you could have that’s what I call just like a web page. You could have that be the case study page or you could have it over living in your blog. So something that and it’s just a personal preference as far as I know, I haven’t found anything to, you know, statistically. Back up. This is better than that. Yeah. People are kind of funny about like how they want their websites to look. So it’s really just like, do you want it to look like this or do you want it to look like this? But this year I’ve actually had a goal to write one blog a week and I’ve definitely fallen behind with all of the moves and everything, but I need to tell Google more about what I do and who I’m helping, what I do, how I help all that stuff. So the best way I could figure out to do that while also being like very meta about it all was like, Here’s a case study about me working with a client. Here’s a case study about me being a client over at like this chiropractic office. So just kind of like playing around with the different types of case studies to.
You mentioned before, like I’d go listen to an interview. What if somebody doesn’t have an interview with that person?
You can get one done. So you could go and interview the person. That’s also a service that I offer my clients because like I said, I just like talking to people and you do.
The interview for.
I can on their behalf. Gotcha. Okay.
So I’ve done both and I’ve actually started to get to bring this full circle. I’ve started to get testimonials from these strangers that I’m writing the case study about where I’ve interviewed them.
Its very inception, like, right, So you’re okay. So your client hires you to do the interview? Yes. Because you’re writing the case study. Yes. And then you get a testimonial from the person that you’re interviewing who is the case study? Uh huh. On how good of a of an interviewer you are.
More of just like what I want to know. Actually, it’s funny that I’m realizing this right now. How did the interview feel? What was the experience like?
Okay. Okay, gotcha.
So more of like the internal like I felt comfortable talking to Brittany. I felt very seen. I felt, you know, whatever it was. Gotcha. Okay. That’s very meta. That is very.
It’s very meta.
So, all right. So we want to pretty, pretty clear on the format. Like if we don’t have an interview, we can just interview them, sit down with on Zoom for whatever for 15 minutes and have a chat. Yeah. Now, are there specific questions that we should be asking the person that we want to do the case study about that align with problem like the PET framework, problem experience or experience and transformation. Are there specific questions that we want to be asking?
Honestly, just starting there is great. And with the training that I put out, that was the number one thing. I was shocked. That was the number one thing that people wanted to know. What questions should I be asking in that interview? Yeah, and same thing, like you said, I was like, just talk to them. Just ask them questions.
But people always want like, no, no, no, no. Tell me what to ask.
Yeah, they do. And I wasn’t I wasn’t expecting that. So that was an interesting aha moment that I had. So I actually came up with a list of questions which I did not bring with me because I wasn’t thinking that far ahead. But really where you want to start is just what was keeping you up at night before you came in. What help were you hoping to get? Why did you choose me? Why are you working with me? And then you can go more to the the experience, the during. What did it feel like going through this? If this side note, if this interview isn’t going to be seen by anyone, if you’re not going to use this for a podcast episode or a Facebook Live or something like that, you could even take that opportunity to say, Hey, is there anything I could have done better? Is there anything that would have made this experience like a ten out of ten instead of a nine out of ten? Most of the time people are pretty happy and they don’t have anything to say. But if they do have something to say, like, you know, ask them and you shall receive possibly good feedback. Yeah. And then, you know, for the tea part, what, what’s happened in your life and in your business since we worked together, what wins have you had? And if they go immediately for the numbers, which a lot of people want to do, yeah. You can also then follow that up with like, Well, how did you feel after completing the program? How do you feel now that you have X, Y, Z under your belt? Yeah.
Another question that everybody always wants to know is like how long? Yeah. Is a case study.
So mine I’ve noticed land around a thousand words, give or take. Give or take a couple hundred.
That’s a pretty long case study.
It’s a pretty long case study. And yours doesn’t have to be that long. So, you know, good rule of thumb, when you’re writing any kind of copy for a web page, at least 500 words. So you at least want to give them that much. But probably it’s going to land if it’s on the short side between 500 and 800 words.
So we probably wouldn’t I mean, you cut me like we probably wouldn’t include that on a sales page. Wouldn’t that be pretty long for a sales page?
Well, you wouldn’t want it. The thing I was thinking about is you wouldn’t want to include like the actual copy, but what you might want to do and this is how, this is how my client has done it. She has like a blurb. So it’s kind of like the highlight the hook. Okay. And that way if people want to read more, then there’s a button underneath that says, you know, read the full story over here and that’s the friend or that’s the client that’s using the case studies on her sales page. So it’s just a little blurb and then a button.
Gotcha. Okay. But does not take them off the sales page, though.
Exactly. That’s that’s why I’m saying like we’re testing it. Okay. It was her idea and I was like, let’s see how this goes. Is it is it is it sending them to one page with several case studies on it?
No, just the one. Just the one client. But she has three featured on the sales page. Three clients. So it’s three of those blurbs and then three, three away pages.
Because I think that’d be kind of interesting. Maybe it.
Is. And I’m curious to see how it goes.
Hyperlinks at the top that I don’t know. I don’t know how to do this from like I am not a techie person, but like have the name of the person and like, you know, whatever, like their deal, basically who they are and what they do. And then maybe the person wants to read, oh, number two of three. So they click that one and just bounces them down to that section of the page.
You could do that.
You could do. And then there’s like buttons throughout the page that kicks them back to the sales page though. Yeah, I don’t understand how to do any of that text that we’ll have to call. I’m not.
Someone who knows.
Have you can have call to call, you know, like the CTA buttons throughout throughout the page that would just kick back over but. Why do they call it jump links.
Jump links. There you go. No idea how to do them, but nope, I know the name. I think they’re pretty easy to do. So another question that people always ask and I’m always curious, curious about this too, is like where in the if we’re doing a launch, for example, where in the email sequence both, you know, let’s just say where people are going to do a live training or something like that. Are we using case studies before? After during quote unquote, open enrollment or what have you, or both or where are we using it?
That’s a good question. And actually, I’m smiling because if you’re watching any kind of video, you’ll see that I’m smiling because I have another very meta idea for the next launch that I do for this case study. And it’s I’m going to do the next launch and then I’m going to have it kind of more of like an evergreen with different push periods. I know that’s something that you you share about on the show. So I’m like clarification. I’m not just going to be living this launch life. Yeah, yeah, Don’t worry. But I want to feature the case studies in that launch, which then leads into the case study training. So I’m not quite even I haven’t fleshed the whole thing out in my head, but my first thought as you were running through the different possibilities is just. Yes, like shove them in there wherever you could have it. As a I’ve seen clients use it as a like an example of that would just be if you want to read about I don’t know Barbara success with whatever like click here. Yeah.
And then they can just go off and go to the case study page and read about it. And then in theory, the case study page would lead them to signing up for the program, buying your package, whatever it may be. You’re going to have the faster action takers and you’re going to have the slower action takers. So I feel like it’s a good idea to have it kind of toward the beginning and the end of your launch sequence because you’re going to have the people that they may not even want to read the case study, but just to be able to click over to the page scroll and go, All right, it’s there. I see it like they had some success, Like literally that’s all they want to do. Okay. It’s just verify that it’s there. And then you’re going to have the people that are going to want to read every single case study you have ever published. Ever. Yeah. Because they need to see everything. So offering them at the beginning and the end, I think is a good idea, especially.
When it’s a higher ticket, quote unquote offer. Yes, Right. You know, people are going to want to hear that. Now, I know that I the way that I think about this, I’d love to get your thought on this. People tend to freak out a little bit when they’re like, oh, I have to do all these different case studies. I look at it as like, if you’re going to use a case study in the beginning, like in the in the lead up sequence to your launch, you can use the same thing, same one again afterwards. Oh, yeah. You know, and during the quote unquote open period. What are your thoughts on that?
Definitely. I’m a huge fan of repurposing, although I haven’t become so efficient with that myself in practice. Like, in theory, I love it. No, I think that we can’t ever assume that everyone is seeing all of our content always. Yeah, Yeah. So the, you know, you’re going to feel repetitive yourself, but that’s a good thing. That’s what I’ve learned. So yeah.
So where does SEO fit into all this?
Everywhere. No? Okay. So in the case study itself, like I said earlier, I want those pages to be findable, whether you’re putting it on its own web page or if you’re putting it on a blog, again, it doesn’t matter in in my experience. So SEO comes into play throughout the whole thing. Testimonials in general give you great SEO because your clients are saying things in a way that you probably are not thinking to say it, but in a way that other people are searching for it.
So wait a minute. Okay, that brings up a question. Okay. Does in that case there, if we have testimonials on our page, on our like on a sales page. Do we not want screenshots?
I love this question. Okay. And this actually somebody listening.
Right now was thinking, Rick, you always say you’re not techie, but like, that’s a pretty technical question. I’m pretty proud of myself for that question.
Very. You can pat yourself on the back there.
Say the same thing. I’m like, I’m not very techie. And yet I’m like, Oh, wait, I have an answer for this. Screenshots. Yeah, like it’s not going it it the techie robot. Things are not going to capture all of the words that are in that screenshot. So what you would like to do, what I would like for people to do is to before you put that image on your sales page, give it a title, put keywords in the title.
You have the image. Okay. Okay.
Yeah. So you don’t want it to say img four, five, three, two. Yeah. You. It would be better if it said like. And you write it like this. Brittany Dash Herzberg Dash Study Training. Okay. That would be an image title. That would be a an optimized image title. You can take that a step further. And I don’t really remember how to do this part, but I’m going to say it because maybe someone somewhere knows how to do this. You can tag images. Yeah. And when I say that. Yeah. Okay. So you’re, like, familiar. It kind of leaves like an invisible thumbtack or watermark on the image where it includes that keyword. So if a search is done for that keyword, that tag tells Google like, Hey, you know, I’m an answer for that thing, you can show me for that thing.
So. Okay, so you’re you’re you mentioned before, like you do the interview, you figure out who you’re going to do the case, study on, do the interview, figure out the PET framework. But then you also mentioned, you know, SEO research. Yes. Talk about that.
So the reason I watch the interview first or listen to the audio interview first is because I want to hear about their their story. What really stands out, What do I kind of want to center the case study around? And then that gives me a good indication of like, okay, if we want a topic of this to be found, what’s that person going to be looking for? What are they going to be searching for? That’s what I then go figure out with the SEO research. And then for my clients I have a page and I just dump everything in there. For example, the SEO title, the possible URL, slugs, image titles, meta descriptions like everything is there and they just copy paste it over onto their their case study page or their web designer can do that.
Now, are you using AI to make that part easier for you?
I have a very complicated relationship with AI. I find that it takes me so much longer to complete a project when I use AI and I feel like everyone else on Planet Earth is like no, it makes it so much easier and faster. Maybe I just haven’t played around with it enough. I do kind of tend to be an old fart when it comes to like new technology like that. My boyfriend and I joke that we want like a dumb house. And for me that also extends to like the projects that I do. But I have seen with my podcast co-host Crystal and then with Brennan McGowan. Again, I’ve done one of her training programs and I can see how it helps with the ideation process. I can see how it could help. We had a podcast interview recently with someone who used Chatgpt to come up with meta descriptions like that. So I’m like, okay, there are possibilities here, but I haven’t really played around with it yet.
So here’s an idea. So it’s all in the prompt. Yeah, right. It’s all in the prompt and. You. So what I would do with that is you take the transcription of the interview, put it into chatgpt or like fireflies, for example, transcription service. Now there is a limit for how long the transcription can be for putting it into Chatgpt You have to kind of if it’s too long, you have to kind of put it in like by piece, which is kind of a pain, but it’s all in the prompt. Like you kind of play around with the prompt, like you just listed out everything you can just say, like, you know, from this piece of content. And then you go into, you know, show me, I don’t know, whatever examples of or pull out keyword, you know, from an SEO like you can tell it and then just keep refining that prompt. Once you find that prompt, There you go. There’s your problem for your your projects. Yeah.
I’m excited to to eventually dive into it. Eventually I can see I can see the benefit of it for sure. And that’s what one of the things that Brenna did was she dumped in a whole bunch of what was it? I think it was testimonials. And she said something like from these testimonials listed them, what are the top five problems that that people are having? And it was really cool to see. Like it came up with some really great problems and ways to phrase it so I can see how it would be a time saver and just like a great organizer and ideator for you. Yeah, I just haven’t messed around with it enough.
So are you looking at those like top five problems and then are you putting it into like an SEO tool to find out what kind of track? You know, like, again.
To figure out the SEO stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, how am I coming up with the what’s the actual research part? And then how is it coming into the strategy? Good question. So I actually use I pull up Google Chrome, I have a MacBook, so I pull up Google Chrome and I have Ubersuggest extended extension and I have keywords everywhere. Those are the two big ones that I use. Yeah, I use those two in Google because there’s a whole lot of information that shows up on the Google results page that I think that we
overlook a lot or or don’t value or don’t think is strong enough to kind of bring that point back from the beginning. And I’m looking at traffic, but I’m also looking at the search intent. So that is really if you start combing the results and just pay attention to the headlines and then what are they saying in the meta description? Is this the kind of thing that I want to show up for? Like, you know, for example, with the case study training, if I typed in a key phrase and it was coming up with a whole lot of things where it’s more like someone is looking to hire a copywriter for a case study, I don’t necessarily want my training to show up there.
That’s more of like, you know, a client looking for a provider. Sure, I want to show up where someone is asking more of a question like, How do I write a case study? What makes a good case study, things like that. So the search intent is huge. And the search volume, I’ve noticed, like I actually sometimes use key phrases that have a search volume of zero because it’s not like there’s zero results on the page. Initially, I was like, I don’t want to use zero, and now I’ve started to see the merit of using it because what I’m finding is when the key phrase is that specific, you have the search volume of zero, but there’s still results showing up. So you’re going to end up you’re more likely to end up in front of the right ideal client who is ready to buy from you, ready to work with you.
Ubersuggest and keyword I have. I use it too. I’m blanking on what’s the name of it. Keywords everywhere, Keywords everywhere. Yeah.
And I will say I mentioned Google, but I didn’t really go into what’s on the page. So the things I really try to pay attention to are the section where it says People also ask because you’ll see what other questions are there. If you’re ever looking to come up with headlines or even come up with blog content. And this is like on a tangent that’s a great section to look into. Also paying attention to like what we just talked about with the hyperlinks, the headlines and the meta descriptions. And then at the bottom of the Google results page, you’ll see things phrased a little differently. Yeah, pay attention to those too, because you can even click on that and maybe it’ll say it better or maybe it’ll have a better search intent on those pages.
Well, I’ve never put it. Yeah, I’ve never thought of it through that lens of how of how we can be leveraging. Case studies from an SEO perspective.
Yep. I was finding a lot of case studies initially before I really jumped into to this as my niche. I was finding a lot of they were just so dry. There was so much data, there was so much just like it sounded like a robot wrote it and the person didn’t go back and like dig it out and like make it nice. So that’s why I really have story as a big component to mine. Yeah, but then I don’t want to I don’t want to spend my time. I don’t want my client to spend their money. I don’t want this thing to be created and never be found. So for me, everything I do, sales pages, case studies, no matter what it is, it has the intention behind it that all right, how can we make this findable?
Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I’ve never heard that. I mean, I mean, nine years of online business and I’ve never heard leveraging case studies from a from an SEO perspective. I mean, I can think of it from like, Yeah, if it’s a blog post. Okay, Yes. But we don’t normally think of it. I mean, maybe everybody listening, they’re like, we think of it that way, right? Like, I don’t normally think of case studies that way. I’m thinking more like emails or including in, you know, in a if, if we are doing launches or an evergreen or what have you, we’re getting or trying to get people to sign up for something, whether it’s a webinar or what have you, like, were you including case studies in there from an email perspective or. Yeah, on social media or on our sales page, but not never from an SEO perspective? I think it’s super, super smart.
Yeah, I have a tendency to think like I haven’t ever been someone to dive down the rabbit hole of like paid ads. I grew up, we didn’t not have stuff, but we also weren’t like swimming in money. So it’s just like, how can you be efficient? How can you be savvy with these things and you don’t like organic Marketing isn’t just for someone who’s on a budget. Organic marketing supports your paid efforts. Totally. Yeah. So it’s it’s for everybody. It’s like it’s there. I’m also the I just realized this a couple of weeks ago and I said it
somewhere on a podcast. I was the kid that would do the extra credit. So I kind of think of SEO as extra credit. It’s there like, why not take advantage of it? Yeah.
And also, I mean, if it’s especially if somebody’s going to have a program for a long time, I mean you’re building long term searchability that it’s the whole, I’m going to do this work now and this could benefit me. It’s, it’s getting, it’s only getting stronger over time. Correct. You know, the more that Google’s crawlers and all the SEO fun stuff that’s happening that don’t don’t really don’t understand whatever it is. Yeah. And you know and from an ads perspective, I mean there’s different ways you can be using this. I mean, you can use it from, you know, to be retargeting people who have visited your sales page or people who have signed up for your offer or even like, you know, I’m on, you’re on there, somebody gets on your email list and you’re leading them towards something. You can retarget them with a a or a case study kind of ad and also you can just do a straight up ad where you’re like, the whole intent is, I want someone to buy or apply or whatever it is. But the first step in this is to send them to a case study page, you know, and it’s sort of like that initial like you were talking about before, like the initial touchpoint that, all right, let’s get let’s get them this information in front of them first to try to get them to see themselves in, you know, said person and then start to move them down the down the path.
Yeah, I love case studies so much because I feel like it does just foster such a deep connection with the business owner and with the client. And we all want to feel seen and heard. And we were tired of having our our legs yanked around, especially after the last few years. Like we’re just tired of it. Yeah. So people are looking for that transparency. They’re looking for the honesty, they’re looking for the connection. And I feel like, you know, these do a really great job of providing that for people. Yeah.
I love it. So where can people connect with you? They want to they’re like, Hey, I want I want this, but I don’t want to do it myself. Where can they connect with you?
Well, either way, if you want to do it yourself, if you want me to do it for you, I hang out way too much. And that’s supposed to be a joke. But it’s actually very true. I hang out way too much on Instagram. Okay, it’s Brittany underscore Herzberg. I’m sure we’ll have the link and then my website is just my name. Brittany herzberg.com.
Good job. Yes, I had a librarian once spell it as hamburger and I was like, don’t know exactly how you got there. Oh, and you deal with letters on a daily basis. So I’m.
But I’m going to remember that now. You know you realize I’m remember that. And you have a podcast too. Oh, right. Yeah, I have a podcast.
Don’t forget about that. What’s the what’s the podcast name?
Crystal and I have a podcast called The Simple and Smart Show. It’s our free public podcast where we just we really make SEO simple and smart. I mean, it’s right there. And then we also have a paid it’s like $10 a month. We have a paid SEO show called SEO Shorts, which I cannot say or write without thinking of that shorts emoji, but it’s like quick, actionable ways that you can actually take what we’re talking about with SEO and implement it into your strategy. Oh, cool.
And so what was the what was the free one Name free One free.
One is the simple and smart SEO show. Okay. And then the other one is SEO shorts.
Awesome. So yes, I will link everything up that we just talked about on the show notes for today’s episode over on my website. Rick mulready.com. Where I do not currently have any case study blog posts, but yet that is going to come. Brittany, thank you so much for coming on here. This has been really, really cool conversation. And like I mentioned before, not something we’ve we’ve talked about like had a whole episode, especially about.
I’m really glad.
Thanks for having me. This was really fun.
All right. Hope you got a ton out of that one with Brittany. I know that. I was taking notes the entire time. We actually chatted quite a bit after the interview here, just talking about like some of the things that I can be doing with case studies based on everything that you just learned. So hopefully you go and take some action on what you just learned today. Connect with Brittany, let her know that you heard her on the podcast here. And while you’re at it, if you’ve not yet left a quick rating and review for the show over on Apple Podcasts, it’s still a very big help. Thank you in advance for doing that and also make sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you don’t miss any episodes here on the show. If you’re listening on Spotify or another platform, click that follow button and that also helps us reach more people because it’s telling the algorithm and these platforms that, Hey, we like this show, and so make sure to do those quick couple of things in support of the show. Appreciate that. Until next time, my friend, be well and I’ll talk to you soon.